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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
  
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SJR wrote:Who mentioned large marine engines....
....look above NJF did
Quote:I wonder if the same discussions were had when they decided to start cars by using a battery rather than starting handle 
......starting handles isn't really a valid comparison....with engine lubrication & the ability to easily see the level & drain it out without recourse to a suction machine hinders DIY oii changes or for that matter engine oil changes "in the field"
Quote:a whole host of craft <40ft run with diesels that only have one type of oil that is not extracted via a sump plug, they all work....
....quite true but even these would benefit from being allowed to drain.....gravity has to fail to stop contamination to be removed BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
Last edited by BLFarrar on 27th Oct 2009 10:16 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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 27th Oct 2009 10:16 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
 
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Despite Mr. thorgal's conjecture, oil can be drained from the engine in the traditional style and there is a drain that is accessed by removing the engine undershield.
Vacuum draining is, indeed, an alternative option.
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| 27th Oct 2009 10:16 pm |
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SJR
Member Since: 09 Aug 2006
Location: East Manchester
Posts: 4030
 
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BLFarrar wrote:SJR wrote:Who mentioned large marine engines....
....look above NJF did
can see the ref to marine engines but not 'large' ones!
The point was its all about evolution, there is still a sump and a decent suction unit will get rid of everything in the sump, problem is its not what we are used to  I believe that every human has a finite number of heart-beats. I don't intend to waste any of mine running around doing exercises.
Buzz Aldrin (1930 -
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| 27th Oct 2009 10:18 pm |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
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Winger wrote:.....oil can be drained from the engine in the traditional style and there is a drain that is accessed by removing the engine undershield..
magic now that I know a D4 has actually got a sump plug I will go & buy one ! BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 27th Oct 2009 10:19 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
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Technical conjecture is misleading and generally unhelpful............
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| 27th Oct 2009 10:20 pm |
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NJF
Member Since: 05 Oct 2007
Location: Gone
Posts: 2466
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I hope I wasn't conjecting anything, and I'm not a boffin. so pls treat all I've said as nothing other than idle chat. 
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| 27th Oct 2009 10:25 pm |
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Winger
Site Moderator
Member Since: 15 Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3428
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No suggestion that you were conjecting, NJF.
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| 27th Oct 2009 10:28 pm |
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GraemeS
Member Since: 17 Mar 2008
Location: NSW
Posts: 706
 
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Winger wrote:Despite Mr. thorgal's conjecture, oil can be drained from the engine in the traditional style and there is a drain that is accessed by removing the engine undershield.
Vacuum draining is, indeed, an alternative option.
Is the drain point designed as a drain or is it just an apperture for some other specific use near the bottom? The promotional literature implies vacuum emptying as the only method available.
Not draining the sludge from the bottom of the sump of a vehicle that doesn't get a lot of use is a well known cause of engine failure from the inability to properly circulate the sludge.
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| 27th Oct 2009 11:59 pm |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
 
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Vacuum draining of engine oil isn't new, it's been going on for years on hard-working plant & marine engines (of an appropriate size ) if it wasn't appropriate to engines expected to last many millions of run-hours, do you really think the manufacturers would sanction it?
with regards to 'sludge', there's two issues, firstly, the oil filter is there to catch particulates, secondly, whether the oil is drained by vacuum or by gravity the only effective way is to warm the engine oil, thereby distributing any mobile particulates around the engine prior to draining - any immobile particulates will remain where they are regardless of the method of draining the engine lubricant!
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| 28th Oct 2009 12:18 am |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
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GraemeS wrote:Not draining the sludge from the bottom of the sump of a vehicle that doesn't get a lot of use is a well known cause of engine failure from the inability to properly circulate the sludge.
...errrrr what? evidence please of this 'well known' cause
surely if this 'sludge' remains un-circulated then that's a good thing? assuming it exists in the first place,,,,
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| 28th Oct 2009 12:20 am |
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GraemeS
Member Since: 17 Mar 2008
Location: NSW
Posts: 706
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Sludge has been a problem in Saabs. When GM took over they introduced the suction oil change procedure. Some years down the track there were many engines failing in vehicles that were driven only short distances. Saab eventually re-introduced draining engine oil to overcome the problem.
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| 28th Oct 2009 2:36 am |
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BLFarrar
Member Since: 02 Aug 2006
Location: Deepest, Dankest, Darkest, Dingiest......Le Halifax, West Yorkshire...with strong links to Ireland
Posts: 6222
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Thanks for the SAAB data....which proves at least one car maker sees the need for a simple method for this important issue....not conjecture a fact
Oil filters will & do discriminate impurities - sludge will either collect in sump or be distributed around engine....draining the oil allows these to flow out naturally (engine oil warmed etc) using the suction method picks up what it can from where the suction tube enter the sump (dip stick hole).....which according to SAAB data can fail.
Cars I have had & run a long life (mainly Volvo's with Petrol Engines i.e. a couple well over 20 years & over 400k miles) had the benefit of regular oil changes, occasional flush outs (remember flushing oil ?), also sump pans & rocker covers being removed for cleaning.....was always amazed at the amount of sludge & crud that accumulated.....one of these vehicle engines outlived my ownership to live another life...as the preventive work had been done through the life of the engine
Attention to basic lubrication is good maintenance practice....good quality lubricants changed out at optimum intervals = long engine life.
Disco 2 TD5 engines used a centrifugal filter fitted in tandem with conventional media filters to increase intervals between oil changes (not my words....LandRovers in the Video they used to launch the TD5 series II Disco).........the reasons for putting it into volume production vehicles wasn't continued to TD6.....wonder why? maybe a cost down "value engineering"......(no doubt someone will enlighten all here as to why)
Landrover also sold flushing oil for TD5's to clean engine oil for the benefit of the Turbo charger.....all three of my TD5 engined Disco 2's had this flush out done
One of the mails suggested the use of an electronically sensed oil level was a development...where this thread started.... I disagree
having a sensor for level means a warning light for level can be fitted with the potential to work properly & improperly...in the event this doesn't work the wrong oil level (low) being allowed to prevail may mean damage to engine.....which is usually irreversible & costly...also gross overfilling can damage an engine
having a means of dipping the oil level that doesn't rely on electronic systems (with the potential to fail or be inaccurate) is keeping one fundamental check simple (I had one BMW 5 series/ZF auto gearbox where the electronically sensed level system failed & damaged the box..a fact that cost me a lot of money to fix....not conjecture)
[/u]
I check the engine oil level in both vehicles I use on a regular basis weekly. BREXIT - done properly.
Right now ...We need Government - not Politics
Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
Founder: Dipsticks-R-Us Inc
D3 HSE-perfectly formed, passenger friendly...has real DIPSTICK
Jag XK-but sadly no DIPSTICK...HUGE design fault
FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
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| 28th Oct 2009 6:54 am |
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GraemeS
Member Since: 17 Mar 2008
Location: NSW
Posts: 706
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I do not know how Saab implemented their oil evacuation nor if they have resumed this method, nor how effectively this method has been implemented in the 3.0.
I've found a computer-generated picture of the sump on the 3.0 in a LR document that shows what appears to be a proper drain outlet. The view is from behind the outlet so no plug is visible. Its at the opposite end to where the oil level sensor is fitted.
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| 28th Oct 2009 9:46 am |
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NJSS
Member Since: 06 May 2009
Location: Catherington, Hampshire.
Posts: 10844
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No sump plug must mean that not all oil is extracted & all (or at least most) crud remains in sump.
The remedy will, of course, be to drop the sump from time to time to clean it out - but I bet that's not in the service schedule.
Nigel Am I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
2016 Discovery 4 Landmark
2011 Mercedes Benz SL350 (R230)
1973 MG B GT V8 - 3.9L John Eales engine, 5 speed R380 gearbox, since 1975.
1959 MGA roadster - 1.9L Peter Burgess Engine - 5 speed gearbox
Past LRs - Multiple FFRs, Discos & a Series I - some petrol, some diesel,
none Electric or H2 fuel cell - yet.
There are 10 types of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
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| 28th Oct 2009 10:07 am |
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grzesiul
Member Since: 11 May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 6415
 
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ya all D4ers can drill a hole and make a DIY drain plug right???
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| 28th Oct 2009 10:46 am |
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