Member Since: 27 Jun 2017
Location: Alderton
Posts: 235
Ruben.
I don't understand which bit you think I'm wrong about. The fact that people are getting confused (I might be wrong) or the tyre requirement. 5 minutes on Google for a bit of in depth research, but don't worry I've done the hard bit.
However, I'm not saying Spain is the exception but Spain is not in the list. Probably because there is no legal requirement to have them.
Nearly all countries that have a legal requirement accept that M+S is a legally safe option.
10th Dec 2017 9:02 pm
df_tom
Member Since: 10 Mar 2017
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 127
carroll493d wrote:
If you go by all the regulation on the continent then M+S is a legally accepted tyre at winter. Yes they are not winter tyres but after going out today on my M+S goodyear wranglers, I'm satisfied that they can handle it.
If they weren't I'm sure the Germans wouldn't allow it and they do
You are right and not. We did allow it, but starting next year M+S does nor qualify anymore for selling new tires. Only the little snowflake in mountain.
The reasoning: m+s is purely a marketing tool and as such a simple declaration made by manufacturers. The snowflake has to prove to perform better in winter conditions than a predefined standard snowflake reference winter tire.
See also: discussion re: POR. Professional off road
Imho new AT tires should do just fine, especially if complementary chains are at hand and the driver knows how and when to fit them.
MTs ard yet another story, they are utter rubbish in snow and ice, only to be driven with chains. Car still has only 4 tires to brake and steer, mind you.
11th Dec 2017 7:02 am
df_tom
Member Since: 10 Mar 2017
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 127
Carrol, your link dates back to 2013. The regulation has been amended just this year. And since we are in Europe, probability is high that it is harmonized all across the continent. Ruben's right on track.
UK regs May differ, but that is another thread's topic.
11th Dec 2017 7:17 am
carroll493d
Member Since: 27 Jun 2017
Location: Alderton
Posts: 235
Happy with that. So what we are saying is that M+S is still legal and accepted as a winter tyre for a few years in Germany and i agree that other countries will follow.
11th Dec 2017 1:49 pm
grzesiul
Member Since: 11 May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 6266
As of next year, new tyres will need to carry the 3PMSF ‘snowflake’ symbol on the sidewall in order to count as winter tyres in Germany. Colleagues at our sister publication Neue Reifenzeitung report that a new regulation which took effect on 1 June sets out that all tyres made from 1 January 2018 must be 3PMSF certified in order to qualify as winter tyres under German traffic regulations. This replaces the ‘situational winter tyre requirement’ in place since 2010, which only calls for tyres to wear the M+S marking.
Tyres produced before 1 January 2018 will be exempt from the regulation until 1 October 2024.
11th Dec 2017 1:58 pm
df_tom
Member Since: 10 Mar 2017
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 127
Until 2024 you may wear your old rubber manufactured before and including 2017 down.
M + S built after 2018 without the "three mountain peak / snowflake" are NOT deemed valid, though.
So, depends on where you want to go, but if buying new, i wouldn't pay one dime extra for M+S.
And: Cops are one way to look at it, insurance may be another one.
edit: grzesiul was faster, and hey, "Neue Reifenzeitung", there's an app for that.... Craz to know we care for almost every litte weird speciality so much we have a "new tire times".
11th Dec 2017 2:04 pm
carroll493d
Member Since: 27 Jun 2017
Location: Alderton
Posts: 235
So back to the question for nhollandsmith, legally you appear fine to stick. I'll be sticking with my M+S wranglers and chains to get up the Alpes.
Glad we finally got a definitive answer rather than people's opinions.
11th Dec 2017 2:11 pm
grzesiul
Member Since: 11 May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 6266
I have a set of M+S Scorpions on my Disco 3 and want to know if I should change them for Full Winters for Europe???
Any help or thoughts much appreciated.
I think we got off track there "nhollandsmith" was asking for recommendations and not what the minimum legal requirement was/is.
IMHO it's a no brainer. Summer tyres in summer, winter tyres in winter. I value my life more than to compromise.
11th Dec 2017 3:04 pm
ruben D3 Decade
Member Since: 26 Sep 2006
Location: ASTURIAS
Posts: 2382
carroll493d wrote:
....
Glad we finally got a definitive answer rather than people's opinions.
ruben wrote:
carroll493
I think that you are wrong!! When it snows.... the road police will not let you drive without chains or winter tires, they consider the M + S summer tires for all purposes
I feel my poor English, and have not expressed my experience well, I apologize for it ...so I repeat it..I hope that with better luck this time!!
.... I have never given an opinion, I have noted a fact, and I quote myself to reiterate that here the highway police do not accept or consider the M + S as a winter tire to any effect and therefore in difficult conditions do not allow you to circulate if you do not have chains or tires marked with peaks and snowflakes, and that has been applied for a long time ... I do not know if you can go to the Alps, but if you come here I recommend that you bring your chains or change your tires ... if you find snow and the situation requires it, they will not let you pass to the station and you will have to settle for going to the beach!!
good luck!!lost in translation!
11th Dec 2017 4:06 pm
waterbuoy
Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Argyll
Posts: 2861
Completely agree with you Ruben ref how the police act in reality. Whilst M+S may physically work in winter conditions (esp fresh snow), they are in no way comparable to the performance of a true winter tyre for day to day use in winter conditions. As someone has already said, the M&S/AT type of tyre are a compromise with a bias towards mild off-road grip, but for driving in winter almost anywhere in Europe then my first choice would be a true winter tyre.
Three years ago we were on a working holiday in Samoens in the northern French Alps. I had to drive to the heli-port at Argentiere which involved driving UP approximately 1.5km of a ski-run (the alternative road was closed because of a recent dump of the white stuff). My nearly new BFG ATs coped fine and I thought 'Pah, who needs winter tyres'.
Two days later a mini reversed out of a parking space into our side whilst I was driving through a car park in Samoens. (Barely a mark on the Disco, relative carnage on the mini) Within minutes we were surrounded by angry French skiers who all had an opinion to give re 'big 4x4s'. Long story short, his insurance covered his repair costs but the Gendarmes issued me with a ticket for not having true winter tyres
The owner of the chalet which we rented drove a 7-seater suzuki 4wd something or other with winter tyres instead of ATs which he used in the summer. He convinced me of the merits of winter tyres after getting me to follow him in my D3 whilst he drove up one of the passes in their VW 2wd Caravelle fitted with snow tyres. Lesson learnt!
Currently 2009 Disco 3 SE, 2013 MY D4 HSE and 2016 D4 SE
Previously:
TD5 Defender 110 CSW (230k miles)
300TDi Disco 1 (289k)
4 RR Classics (300-350k each, 2 manual, 2 auto)
110 V8 CSW (220k)
S3 109 hi cap pickup (ex RN)
S2A 88 Safari SW with lpg conversion (bloody lethal)
11th Dec 2017 4:29 pm
carroll493d
Member Since: 27 Jun 2017
Location: Alderton
Posts: 235
Waterbouy what you have said is all terrains will get you up a ski slope fine but the grendarmarie dont know there own laws.
Im not against winter tyres, far from it but some people including myself have brand new M+S all season tyres on there car and don't have money to spend on more tyres.
If I had Sumner tyres on I would defiantly get winter's but If the tyres work and are safe then brilliant.
Can anyone here categorically say that M+S tyres are dangerous?
If we are all concerned about being as safe as possible we would all buy new Volvo xc60 (wish I could)
11th Dec 2017 6:08 pm
ruben D3 Decade
Member Since: 26 Sep 2006
Location: ASTURIAS
Posts: 2382
I find it curious, to say something, to read that gendarmerie don’t know their own laws, it sure is a joke, right?
lost in translation!
11th Dec 2017 6:18 pm
df_tom
Member Since: 10 Mar 2017
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 127
Glad _you_ said that. I guess it won't be much of a difference here.
carroll: you're fine until 2024. By then you should have changed them tires, since old and hard winter is worse than fresh summer tires, really.
On my C2 i had old winter tires, they were rubbish, so old. Never drove the car in snow in the last 4-5 years of ownership. In fact the tires practically didn't wear. Could't get rid of them on the road, but didn't want to buy new. So i didn't use the car...
12th Dec 2017 7:15 am
nhollandsmith
Member Since: 26 Nov 2011
Location: Gdansk
Posts: 327
Thanks for all the thoughts on my question and it is a difficult decison to make not just about cost but also on risk.
I know when I lived out in Poland for 2.5 years I had winter tyres on all the time and they were great but when I came back to UK and when the Vredstein's needed replacing I opted for the standard Pirelli Scorpions but made the extra effort with the M+S just in case.
This week the Pirelli's managed quite well in the snow but felt they were not digging down enough and have managed to find a set of alloys with vred's on the forum.
I took my Dicso to Broadfields yesterday and noted business was quiet as others had cancelled appointments due to the snow and ice which was a great surprise to me as the Disco is the best capable vehicle in such conditions.
In any event, I will feel better knowing I have the winter tyres on going by past experience.
It is good to know the latest rules in Germany as regards M+S tyres and thanks for the info that was very helpful.
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