Member Since: 29 Apr 2006
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 161
Inevitable tax increase
Does anyone have a feel for what may really happen to our cars if the clamouring for "taxing gas guzzlers" takes real effect. All parties seem to be making these populist noises now
I believe that the correct way for government to behave would be to formulate a tax that affected cars bought after a specified date in the future. Thus encouraging future purchasers in a particular direction.
Should they just say all cars polluting over 250g should pay £300 - £500 (or even more!!!!) per annum, our cars would be harder to move on, second hand prices drop and we get left with £30-40K cars that no one will want to tax.. or buy. I'm sure that Land Rover would be pleased with such government help too in selling new vehicles.
I am not wording this well but you must get my drift. Such rises if applied in a back dated fashion would seem unfair as you can only buy on the information you have to hand at the time. You are then a tax prisoner as you are not going to scrap your expensive car but you are also unable to sell it.
If this has already been done to death else where, I apologise, but it is some thing that is concerning me at present.NOW SOLD: 2006 TDV6 SE Auto Zermatt silver with Alpaca Leather
Tow Pack, PTI, Full Size Spare
19th Sep 2006 4:46 pm
dylansdad
Member Since: 04 Apr 2006
Location: Solihull
Posts: 745
pesonally I can see the the point of higher taxation for those who own our 'gas guzzlers' for city living, however there has to be allowances/discounts given for other factors.
e.g. for those who live in a rural area a 4x4 is a lifeline when the weather kicks in, or for those who own horses and need to tow trailers.
of course Id much rather they admitted the increases in fuel cost have meant an increase in taxation anyway and abolished road tax altogether. Introduce congestion charging and the total effect would be both economical, ecologially and socially fair.
but what do I know Im a mere voter 2004 TDV6 HSE Auto Zambezi Silver
19th Sep 2006 5:23 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50947
It's all a waste of time and effort .....what do they think.....that there is some protective bubble above the UK and as long as we tax the sh*t out of every car owner then the air in our bubble will be ok
There are currently 775million motor vehiicles across the planet ....by 2030 that is forcast to double to over 1.5 billion.... with major ownership increases in China and the far east.
Why should the good citizens of UK ....with their measly 23 million motors pay over the odds... when the culmalative effect of ownership increases across the world will make the difference to the 'environment' so insignificant.
It's all a big con to squeeze yet more money out of us ....and thats the end of it 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
Last edited by DG on 20th Sep 2006 9:23 am. Edited 1 time in total
19th Sep 2006 5:58 pm
LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23388
Agree, the only real way is to force car manufacturers across the world to only install engines with a max. CO2 output level. Which although somewhat drastic could probably be achieved in a reasonably short timeframe.
Until that or something similar happens it's just another form of taxation. If the tax on my D3 goes upto £2k or whatever, I don't really have any choice but to pay it. It will be cheaper than taking the potentially massive depreciation hit. Also, unless I radically change my lifestyle & shrink my 6ft 7" frame I need such a vehicle. So I'll pay the tax & the CO2 output from my D3 will remain the same.
Of course one would like to think that the increased tax amount will go towards reducing the UK's CO2 output, but I wasn't born yesterday.
I have to say, my own view is that you should pay as you use. Abolish road tax and put it on fuel. Then, the more emmissions you have the more you pay by virtue of the fact that you are using more fuel. Furthermore, if you are consciencious enough to by a frugal motor, you don't pay so much.
If you live in a rural location (as I do), then that is your choice and if you need your car as a result of that location then, again, choice comes into it.
I have an 80 mile round trip for the cinema or 15 miles for a post office. That is my choice and I don't mind paying for it.
I have six cars and a motorbike. again, that is my choice, but why the hell should I pay road tax for all the vehicles when I can only use (pollute) with only one at any given time.
This country sickens me where everybody wants somebody else to pay for their mistakes or habbits. If you use it, you should take the responsibility of paying for it.
Same goes for the NHS, water, sewage, airports, postal service.........
Flame suit on.....
19th Sep 2006 6:19 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50947
I'm quite happy to pay for anything .......except bullsh*t 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
I'm quite happy to pay for anything .......except bullsh*t
Oh No!..... I dish that out for free so you have nothing to worry about
19th Sep 2006 6:38 pm
dylansdad
Member Since: 04 Apr 2006
Location: Solihull
Posts: 745
whilst I agree on abolishing the road tax, I dont agree this should automatically add to the fuel costs. The Gov get increased taxes from fuel already. I would far prefer congection charges to apply more widely. This would enable scaled charges/taxes and control depending on levels of traffic and particular polution hot spots.... end result, those who really cause majority of polution pay for it.
If I take a 20 Min journey covering 15 miles in my D3 cross country I will cause far less polution than the equivalent journey which would take over an 1 hour across a busy city centre ...... congestion charging is definitely the way to go imho.
Of course dont be surprised if the greedy government dont do both.... up tax on fuel , up tax on vehicles and then introduce congestion charges.... they will then maybe reduce roadtax on lower emmission vehicles... nanny state controlling the masses......under the banner of the ecology.... but whatever they will end up with more cash in their pockets and less in ours 2004 TDV6 HSE Auto Zambezi Silver
19th Sep 2006 7:53 pm
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26706
Quote:
I believe that the correct way for government to behave would be to formulate a tax that affected cars bought after a specified date in the future. Thus encouraging future purchasers in a particular direction.
Already done! if you are lucky enough to have a Discovery 3 registered before 23rd march 06, then you only have to pay £195 per year. After that date it is £215.
19th Sep 2006 10:25 pm
nobbyclark
Member Since: 03 May 2005
Location: Perth, Scotland
Posts: 1268
dylansdad wrote:
pesonally I can see the the point of higher taxation for those who own our 'gas guzzlers' for city living
[rant]
Can you? What is that then? Why should city dwellers pay more than out-of-townies? I am intrigued to know. Should you therefore be taxed for entering my city? (Actually, you are if you choose to do it during the week, but that's for another argument). Do you think LR would be as profitable if all of us townies in London, Edinburgh and Manchester stopped buying their products?
I live in London and own a D3. There, I've said it. I rarely if ever use it there though. That's what the Mini is for. I use the D3 to cover long distances, such as to Scotland (regularly) and mainland Europe (occasionally). But if someone chooses to buy a large vehicle to navigate the streets of their city, who are you to penalise them? It is their choice and that's what this government keeps wobbling on about. Choice in schools, choice in health care. And choice to spend what little of our untaxed income we have left on supporting a British car manufacturer, thus keeping 000s off the DWP books and being less of a burden on my tax.
I agree that tax rises are inevitable but they should be done on the basis of amount of fuel used, not the type of vehicle or where it is used. Cars have a wonderful in-built regulator that ensures that tax is paid as soon as the ignition key is turned - it's called the driver. I have to select a car/engine/gearbox combo, where to use it and how to drive it. My selection directly affects the amount of money that Golden Gordon will get. This way, if I choose to use my V8 RR, BMW or Jaguar in town and chew through loads of fuel, the government gets lots of tax, including a surplus for my choice of owning such a vehicle for stop-start journeys. But if I choose to drive my diesel V6 at a steady 75 to Perth, the government still gets its share, albeit a smaller one, because I chose comparatively economically and should be rewarded.
[/rant]No longer a D3 owner but still subscribed to multiple threads!
20th Sep 2006 9:05 am
10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
At the bottom of their list: the experts said current methods to combat climate change, like the Kyoto Protocol, were bad because they would cost more than the good they do. Kyoto would cost £80bn a year for the rest of the century, but only postpone warming six years in 2100. Investing the £14bn that would halve HIV-deaths in Kyoto instead would postpone global warming four days in 2100. For every pound spent on Kyoto, we'd do 2 pennies worth of good.
Member Since: 03 Jan 2006
Location: Romiley
Posts: 13710
Gareth wrote:
Quote:
I believe that the correct way for government to behave would be to formulate a tax that affected cars bought after a specified date in the future. Thus encouraging future purchasers in a particular direction.
Already done! if you are lucky enough to have a Discovery 3 registered before 23rd march 06, then you only have to pay £195 per year. After that date it is £215.
This is what I'm pinning my hopes on if/when this tax starts to stupidly rise in response to unfair pressureSteve N | 21MY Defender | 08MY Discovery 3 (history) | 06MY Discovery 3 (ancient history)
20th Sep 2006 10:37 am
dgrr
Member Since: 04 Apr 2006
Location: York
Posts: 212
Re: Inevitable tax increase
SimonH wrote:
Does anyone have a feel for what may really happen to our cars if the clamouring for "taxing gas guzzlers" takes real effect. All parties seem to be making these populist noises now
Don't worry unduly - I seriously doubt there being any truth behind any
of these tax claims. No electable political party would ever actually
introduce such a specific policy - with the exception of the LibDems... but no worries there, as they're all bonkers & remember: I did begin the sentence with the word "electable".
My reasons behind this are:
1. The collapse in demand following a massive hike would place too many UK manufacturing jobs (& not just those in Solihull) at risk - & there aren't many left as it is. Remember the Rover debacle? Longbridge was dead in the water, yet so desperate was the Govt to keep the plant going (with an election looming), HM Treasury (under command of one G Brown) had the brilliant idea of using our taxes to step in and pay the £6m wage bill for a week or 2! Another such scenario would therefore be politically unthinkable.
2. No tax could operate successfully with the top bracket being massively disproportionate to the rest. Sure, a D3 owner will always pay more than the guy with a Ford Ka, but only proportionately. Evidence to support this? Look no further than the Council Tax system. Putting the out-of-date valuations to one side, there is not that much of a costings gap between the cost of your house falling into the top 2 or 3 bands.
3. What, exactly, is a "gas-guzzler" anyway?
The maths never quite add up. Show us a D3 & we'll show you a car that, whilst weighing in at 2.7 tonnes, can transport 7 adults simultaneously, whilst returning 25mpg. In comparison, it is very rare to come accross a so-called "family car" with typically just over half the D3 occupant capacity, whilst achieving nearly twice the fuel efficiency.
4. The actual benefit to the treasury of heavily taxing, say, all 4x4
drivers would add little to the coffers, yet would create a huge backlash: I believe the figure for 4x4 sales is somewhere around 15% of all new cars currently being sold. That's a lot of people - we are not talking about a tiny group of fox hunters here!
I think the most likely scenario is that sooner or later, They (whichever colour of political party is in power) will slap another £100 or so on the top rate of CO2 emitters. So our car tax goes up to £300 or so - not the end of the world, & will make no difference to depreciation.
JMC was absolutely right in his earlier posting: the only fair system would be to pay for useage. I totally agree with his entire argument.DGRR
20th Sep 2006 11:00 am
dylansdad
Member Since: 04 Apr 2006
Location: Solihull
Posts: 745
nobbyclark wrote:
[[rant]
Can you? What is that then? Why should city dwellers pay more than out-of-townies? I am intrigued to know. Should you therefore be taxed for entering my city? (Actually, you are if you choose to do it during the week, but that's for another argument). Do you think LR would be as profitable if all of us townies in London, Edinburgh and Manchester stopped buying their products?
[/rant]
Its nothing to do with Landrovers profitability.
The issue is one of polution. The PURPOSE of the change Im advocating would be one of polution control, therefor you need to create teired 'costs' to motorists entering poluted areas or those that are congested therefor causing excess polution.
My view is based on the presmise that road tax is abolished. therefor in my proposal if you are using your D3 for long non city driving then chances are it would cost less per year than currently for the mini then as london does already there would be tiered costs depending on how much polution the vehicle makes.
on all levels congestion charges work to encourage sensible thinking about polution in the key areas. ...encouraging car sharing, making you think twice as to how necessary it is to drive vs public transport etc.etc.
my point is its less about the vehicle you drive than WHERE you drive it.... For thoe of us with big vehicles we are already paying more tax via fuel.... that hasnt made much of an impact to polution and never will... if you really want to make change as the Gov claims then as i see it there is only one effective way.... but like I said expect to see tax incrases on everything then some gracious credits to keep the masses pacified. 2004 TDV6 HSE Auto Zambezi Silver
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| 08MY Discovery 3 (history) 
for the mini then as london does already there would be tiered costs depending on how much polution the vehicle makes.
