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Ent
Member Since: 12 Oct 2007
Location: In the cack
Posts: 6485
  
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Your more likely to die from soot inhalation than from CO
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index...458AAKf0MW
This is my own personal opinion but as long as you opened the garage door first for a minute or three you will be alright. I'm guessing if you can afford a MY13 HSE LUX you have a garage door with a remote control. In the event you die from running you FBH can I have first dibs on the LUX? Club Exped trailer
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 19th Mar 2013 10:08 pm |
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Rizco
Member Since: 07 Mar 2013
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 72
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The "abundance" of combustion air will not remain due to the lack of ventilation, leading to a higher production of CO.
If you don't replenish the oxygen levels in the space it will burn dirty and produce an "abundance" of CO
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| 19th Mar 2013 10:49 pm |
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Mother Theresa
Member Since: 21 Nov 2011
Location: Northants
Posts: 104
 
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I'll try not to make this sound like an O level physics/chemistry write up but :
Method: CO meter (Kidde 2 years old- digital 'live' display and stores highest reading) placed on bonnet in double garage last night having been tested and new batteries inserted. Watched Dara O'Briain latest DVD, nearly wet self, went to bed. Woke up. Normally plip the garage door as leaving house but today plipped it whilst standing outside the garage. Rushed in to read the display and then immediately put it inside the the car with me on the way to work to see what the levels inside were.
Results: Display on entering the garage was zero, zip, nada. Didn't change on entering the car.
Discussion: Well, either the meter is knackered or the dangers are being exaggerated. I'll try again tomorrow with the meter directly in front of the FBH outlet.
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| 20th Mar 2013 9:00 am |
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Russell
Member Since: 24 Aug 2007
Location: Kent
Posts: 10564
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M3DPO wrote:steveraspberry wrote:Sorry M3DPO but that's a ridiculous thing to say! Mate, if you don't know don't guess at it! That frankly  bit of advice could kill someone! Ask yourself a question, would you be as confident if it was your son or daughter going into that situation? .... Didn't think so 
It's noticeable under my carport let alone an enclosed space. As has been said elsewhere, exhaust fumes kill and kill quickly. DON'T take the chance!
I've been doing it for the last 3 winters and I'm still here to tell the tale, but with a D3 not a D4, I don't know if the heater fans start up on the D4 but if they do I would imagine the circulation flap is closed to prevent fumes being sucked into the car. And of course my FBH is well maintained 
Well to be honest you should not be. These things give off carbon monixde and will kill in an enclosed space even if ventilated, they need to be in fresh air to work safely.
Examples to prove how fatal carbon monixide is, last year a young woman died in a tent from carbon monoxide fumes off a BBQ, tents are naturally drafty but the thing still held enough fumes to kill her.
If in any doubt put a carbon monoxide sensor up in your garage and see what it does next time your FBH starts up. I would not want to be there. MY17 D5 1st Edition Namib Orange
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| 20th Mar 2013 9:13 am |
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Popelka
Member Since: 31 May 2008
Location: Praha (Prague)
Posts: 2430
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Good thread, never thought about it too much and I was envious on those that have a FBH during these really bad winters, however what also did get me thinking was
(no need to watch, I'll explain)
when we're talking about garages are these stand alone garages or part of the house.
Those that are part of the house has the potential of leaking fumes etc into the house not just fill up inside the garage
also an observation on the test.
how much fumes and CO can be put out by the small FBH compared to the 2.7 (3.0)ltr engine over the same period; just a thought why it didnt show anything Experience is a difficult teacher, because she gives the test first and then the lesson afterwards!!!!
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| 20th Mar 2013 9:31 am |
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Ent
Member Since: 12 Oct 2007
Location: In the cack
Posts: 6485
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Before the age of catalytic converters it was all the rage for suicidees to place an exhaust pipe in the back of a petrol engined Maestro and gas themselves over an hour or so. I've never read or heard about anybody succumbing to the fumes or subsequent CO emissions from a diesel engine. The fbh at full chat will only burn a fith of a litre per hour, not exactly chucking it out is it. I'm sure the OP didn't intend to sit there for the full 30 minute burn time, if hes lucky  ,with his mouth around the fbh exhaust pipe. It's more likely he would initiate it from the house or from the timer, open the garage door when he's about to depart, get in the car and drive away. If it was so dangerous to be in contact with CO your average garage mechanic would have full BA on during the working day. Stop scaremongering you lot and get a grip  Club Exped trailer
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| 20th Mar 2013 12:10 pm |
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Rizco
Member Since: 07 Mar 2013
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 72
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Mother Theresa wrote:I'll try not to make this sound like an O level physics/chemistry write up but :
Method: CO meter (Kidde 2 years old- digital 'live' display and stores highest reading) placed on bonnet in double garage last night having been tested and new batteries inserted. Watched Dara O'Briain latest DVD, nearly wet self, went to bed. Woke up. Normally plip the garage door as leaving house but today plipped it whilst standing outside the garage. Rushed in to read the display and then immediately put it inside the the car with me on the way to work to see what the levels inside were.
Results: Display on entering the garage was zero, zip, nada. Didn't change on entering the car.
Discussion: Well, either the meter is knackered or the dangers are being exaggerated. I'll try again tomorrow with the meter directly in front of the FBH outlet.
What do your instructions say about placement?
I get called out to CO Alarm activations all the time and the only time I have found an appliance spilling Products of combustion is when there was no complaint, the alarms are a pain in the though they do bring in the money. Most of the false activations are due to improper placement and use but I still have to do a room CO test to confirm safety ( using a combustion analyser set up as per british standards).
CO being produced as a byproduct of incomplete combustion, due to the fact it is warm, will rise from the offending appliance until it cools and falls.
Most of the dangerous appliances I come across have little to no chance of killing someone but that is enough to condemn its use. And for good reason too!
If you know a gas engineer get him to set up an analyser and test it for you.
Anybody giving the advice that this is safe practice needs to have a word with themselves. It is very irresponsible.
I wonder what the advice land rover would give on the issue would be...........
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| 20th Mar 2013 7:25 pm |
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Mother Theresa
Member Since: 21 Nov 2011
Location: Northants
Posts: 104
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Well today I placed the CO alarm right next to the top of the front left wheel - about 18" away. The FBH had been running for 19 minutes when I got to the alarm and it still read zero. To test the meter I stuck it under the exhaust pipe whilst the engine was cold and within ten seconds it was reading 515 and singing its little head off.
I know this is only an n=1 study but it would strongly suggest that this is just internet scaremongering. I guess the main thing here is that carbon monoxide is a product of incomplete combustion (yellow flame on your bunsen burner) and if you allow in enough oxygen (open slip ring of your bunsen) it changes to blue and that is complete combustion which produces the relatively harmless carbon dioxide. The FBH presumably burns as efficiently as it can so doesn't pump out much CO.
Discuss.
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| 21st Mar 2013 8:55 am |
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Ent
Member Since: 12 Oct 2007
Location: In the cack
Posts: 6485
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Say it run for 20 minutes and it burns 200ml per hour flat out, I make that 66ml burnt, a table spoon holds 15ml as a gauge. I could drink that and have no ill effects. Club Exped trailer
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| 21st Mar 2013 9:43 am |
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Miesmacher
Member Since: 21 Oct 2009
Location: Lucerne
Posts: 73
 
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Ent wrote:Say it run for 20 minutes and it burns 200ml per hour flat out, I make that 66ml burnt, a table spoon holds 15ml as a gauge. I could drink that and have no ill effects.
Now this is not true. Did you ever try? Thought so.
Yes, exhaust fumes in the age of catalytic concerters aren't as dangerous as they used to be (for petrol cars), diesels should do quite ok under perfect circumstances - but all those people who did every year from CO intoxications do not die from scaremongering, but from poisoning.
Cheerio,
Thorsten
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| 21st Mar 2013 12:29 pm |
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Oldgit st
Member Since: 01 Feb 2013
Location: Woodbridge
Posts: 74
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The way I look at it.
A FBH will not in 20mins in a normal sized/venitilated detached garage do any harm at all.
This is presuming the user is going to be a NORMAL minded individual and follows this procedure:-
1) open the door (or get missus to) where breathing masks if unsure
2) walk (not run) to vehicle in a swift brisk manor
3) bypass the FBH exhaust pipe without stopping, looking, glancing or sucking it (this includes the missus)
4) enter car and remove breathing masks
5) start disco and exit the garage without delay 
being more serious, youre not going to be sat in your garage with door shut, NO ventliation whatsover, FBH running, for anywhere near long enough for there to be a problem. IF you are sat there for long enough what for the love of god would you be doing ?
LR also wouldn't be able to pass this off onto the public if there was a massive chance of something happening, I am sure they tested what issues could arise   there agian .....
This of course is PRESUMING youre FBH is runnning exactly as it should, a FAULTY unit may have a different scenario....but still dont think it would kill ya with the door open and the 15 secs it would take to get the car out 
my two penneth anyways
ta
og
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| 21st Mar 2013 12:47 pm |
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Miesmacher
Member Since: 21 Oct 2009
Location: Lucerne
Posts: 73
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Oldgit st wrote:being more serious, youre not going to be sat in your garage with door shut, NO ventliation whatsover, FBH running, for anywhere near long enough for there to be a problem. IF you are sat there for long enough what for the love of god would you be doing ?
LR also wouldn't be able to pass this off onto the public if there was a massive chance of something happening, I am sure they tested what issues could arise there agian .....
This of course is PRESUMING youre FBH is runnning exactly as it should, a FAULTY unit may have a different scenario....but still dont think it would kill ya with the door open and the 15 secs it would take to get the car out
My CHF 0.02: I think the scenario was NOT about sitting half an hour in the exhaust fumes, but entering the garage immediately after the thing was runnign for half an hour. Many people underestimate the speed of the CO intoxication, unfortunately one they know few live to tell. Those who tell, I'd presume, start their stories with "I wouldn't have thought..."
Concerning FAULTY vs. PERFECT FBH - for me and my family I assume that the thing is faulty and live accordingly, rather than die an optimist. It's just like handling guns: always assume they are loaded and you're safer.
Cheerio,
Thorsten
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| 21st Mar 2013 12:55 pm |
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WINDSWEPTISLANDER
Member Since: 21 Jul 2011
Location: Way up north
Posts: 523
 
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1 or 2 observations on this thread...
Surely a car being kept in a garage would not be cold enough to warrant the use of a FBH, even in my un-insulated garage with freezing temperatures outside it rarely drops below 5 degrees.
Some speak about extraction, I am in the process of getting a huose built and am looking at MVHR, my first thought was to take air out of the room with the fire in it, but that can affect the performance of the chimney and cause the fire to produce CO. (apparently) Any room with combustion should be positively ventilated (housing standards)
Does the car not monitor the quality of cumbustion, i.e measure CO or CO2 output? Is there a buiilt in safety cut-off?
What about the use of space heaters? Is that any different? Very common garage equipment.
I'm more or less on the fence with this one, I know I wouldn't do it, for the fire risk as much as anything else. Also it's not th emost pleasant smell, I think the car heats up plenty quick enough, and there are other ways to heat a car in the garage. At the same time I'm not going to call names at anyone who does it in a standalone garage, a garage joined to a house is a different matter.
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| 21st Mar 2013 1:30 pm |
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MogulBoy
Member Since: 07 Feb 2010
Location: Devon
Posts: 140
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^^^ what he said.
On a recent ski trip, it was regularly -10C outside in the morning but the D4 was tucked away in an 'unheated' garaged at an indicated +4C.
Back home it lives permanently outside and I do like to use the FBH from time to time but as it is generally parked in a sort of pen, 2m high on three sides, I have found that when there is precious little wind about my 'death risk' is still marked as the wife objects to the smell when we set-off so I try to remember to shut it down a few minutes before we head outside!  MY11 D4 SDV6 SE LHD (with remote park heater, heated seats in row 2, heated steering wheel and rear HVAC controls!)
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| 21st Mar 2013 2:21 pm |
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KenR
Member Since: 17 Jan 2010
Location: Argyll Scotland
Posts: 329
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Having ended my engineering career as a senior manager in the dreaded H&S, I often came across “we have always done it like this†or “so and so has been doing it for years and has never had a problemâ€
It is NEVER a good idea to do something that in inherently unsafe. The best example of this is an incident at Oppau in Germany in 1921 when they used explosives to break up solidified ammonium nitrate which surprise, surpise exploded, despite the fact that they had done it hundreds of times before - result 800+ dead and a crater large enough to used for off roading.
Perhaps the answer is in the heading to your post “FBH inside garage - Stupid I knowâ€. If you know it’s stupid, why do it?
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| 21st Mar 2013 11:06 pm |
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