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EGR and Cylinder Head temperature
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DG
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Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
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Wales 
EGR and Cylinder Head temperature

Just read this on another motoring website

Quote:
I strongly do not recomend blanking of any of the EGR's as I have stated before the EGR has a cooling efect in the combustion chamber and can cause hot spots , increase cylinder head temp , the engineers have built these heads to work inconjunction with the EGR, and blanking them off efects this , I know yuo guys are saying it improves performance ,but if it efects reliability, leave off , I am seeing cracked heads again in the workshop and no less that two recently were running with blanked off EGR's, 2.5's by the way .


...anyone care to comment Question
 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021  
Post #3953912nd Jan 2009 12:10 am
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AndrewW
 


Member Since: 06 Aug 2007
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United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Graphite LE Auto Orkney GreyDiscovery 4

From a point of ignorance but (hopefully) also logic - if this were true then someone who drove a long way without backing off the throttle (500km on the autobahn? towing, perhaps?) would crack his cylinder head? Due to lack of EGR gas induction....

Shocked
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Post #3953932nd Jan 2009 12:17 am
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simonsi
 


Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
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TDV6/8 EGRs only open on the overrun so under very low load conditions, so hard to see cylinder head temps rising as a result of EGR NOT being recirculated. Also as the (hot) exhaust gases are not being recirculated and if you have removed the butterfly valve then more (cold) air is being introduced to replace the (hot) exhaust gases previously being introduced. As there is no load on the engine then that should result in increased cooling of the chambers vs normal EGR operation.

What engine was being discussed, not petrol by any chance? Comments above only apply to diesel.
 Cheers

Simon 
 
Post #3953942nd Jan 2009 12:17 am
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DiscoStu
 


Member Since: 09 Apr 2006
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England 

A TDV6 head wouldn't crack, it would warp.

Can't see how re-using cooled exhaust gas would cause a head to get hotter than using fresh air though Question
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Post #3953952nd Jan 2009 12:19 am
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10forcash
 


Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
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United Kingdom 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Manual Zermatt SilverDiscovery 3

Exhaust gas temperature is around 200 degrees hotter than ambient air - even after being 'cooled' (dependent upon engine load of course Wink ) distortion or cracking will occur when gases which are significantly hotter or cooler than the surrounding metal are introduced in large volumes, therefore causing localised fast cooling or heating of parts of the intake system
  
Post #3953992nd Jan 2009 12:25 am
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simonsi
 


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Umm, you in favour or not Ten? Confused
 Cheers

Simon 
 
Post #3954022nd Jan 2009 12:30 am
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10forcash
 


Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
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United Kingdom 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Manual Zermatt SilverDiscovery 3

EGR - no, butterfly - yes, removing that makes blanking the EGR's pointless, hot'ish gases being drawn in (rather than forced in) post turbo will only cause the cold air to expand creating a greater boost effect, personally I think we need some major recall to give D3'ers something to talk about instead of faffing around with tightly integrated emission systems
  
Post #3954082nd Jan 2009 12:48 am
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DG
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I appreciate that the original statement was from a Mitsubishi website concerning their diesels...I am just concerned that the current frenzy of blanking is not without it's drawbacks particularly for those still in warranty...and thought it worthy of discussion Thumbs Up
 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021  
Post #3954212nd Jan 2009 1:12 am
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Russell
 


Member Since: 24 Aug 2007
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10 are you saying you are in favour of removing the butterfly valve, but you are not in favour of blanking the EGR valves off?
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Post #3954392nd Jan 2009 8:23 am
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simonsi
 


Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
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DG wrote:
... is not without it's drawbacks particularly for those still in warranty...and thought it worthy of discussion Thumbs Up


I'm not sure that quote means even that, he says he is seeing cracked heads, two of which have had EGR blanked and presumably an unknown number have cracked heads without having blanked EGRs.

Given that blanking the EGRs isn't a panacea for all engine problems, any given engine design will continue to suffer whatever range of problems it had, blanked or not.

I personally wouldn't blank or butterfly a car in warranty but that is purely to do with warranty terms that have nothing to do with whether the blank or butterfly caused the failure leading to the warranty claim.

Post warranty I'm happy with the science and the lack of overall negative feedback specific to blanked EGRs, and the vast improvement in driveability is certainly worth having.

Compared to running air filters with dubious filtration reports I'm quite comfortable.

Great point to raise!
 Cheers

Simon 
 
Post #3954452nd Jan 2009 9:36 am
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norto
 


Member Since: 10 Apr 2006
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Australia 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Chawton WhiteDiscovery 3

Is there anything on the D3 that won't break Shocked
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Post #3954462nd Jan 2009 9:40 am
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ridgeback_moor
 


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10forcash wrote:
EGR - no, butterfly - yes, removing that makes blanking the EGR's pointless, hot'ish gases being drawn in (rather than forced in) post turbo will only cause the cold air to expand creating a greater boost effect, personally I think we need some major recall to give D3'ers something to talk about instead of faffing around with tightly integrated emission systems


So how come removing the butterfly vv makes blanking pointless? The main reason for blanking, for most people, is because the EGR valve design is unreliable and driving the vehicle with 1 or 2 failed EGR valves is almost impossible. So the EGR is blanked to prevent a failed valve affecting engine performance, and the butterfly is removed to prevent the intake vaccuum that the engine would suffer with closed (blanked) EGR valves and closed butterfly valve. Any performance benefits (improved 'pick up' as reported by some) of the blanking procedure are a bonus, but not the main reason.
Regarding the recirculated gas increasing the boost effect - I can't see that being true as any boost increase will be cancelled out by the increased percentage of non combustible gas drawn / pushed into the engine.
If mine was still in warranty then I'd leave well alone, but now any recovery and repairs are paid for out of my own pocket I'm happier running with the blanks fitted, rather than pay LR £hundreds to fit new (flawed design) valves every couple of years. IMHO, and all down to personal choice of course Thumbs Up
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Last edited by ridgeback_moor on 2nd Jan 2009 10:21 am. Edited 1 time in total 
Post #3954492nd Jan 2009 10:20 am
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SteveNorman
 


Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
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[url] http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic19800.h...p;start=60

Quote:
EGR stands for exhaust gas recirculation. The purpose of this is to lower oxides of nitrogen emissions from the combustion chambers (& out the exhaust). When the combustion temperatures increase, so do the oxides of nitrogen produced. To this effect, exhaust gas is used to add into the combustion chamber to reduce temperatures, this seems a strange thing to do, exhaust gas being hot! The temperature of the exhaust gas is less than cylinder temperatures, when added back into the cylinders, less oxygen is available to be burnt, reducing temperatures & oxides of nitrogen. EGR can also be cooled via cooling system coolers to reduce temps further, as is the case on later TDV6's.
The increased temps by not having EGR will not increase temps by more than the engine can cope with, as there were many engines running without EGR before, & they coped

As MOT's smoke tests only measure visible smoke, blanking the EGR will not make the vehicle fail. In fact as EGR increases particulate emissions (soot) there is a likelyhood that visible emissions could well be less.

HTH
Steve
  
Post #3954502nd Jan 2009 10:20 am
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MacLeod 313
 


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To be honest, if its in Warranty I would'nt go near the EGR plates. LR are checking if you have a break down, well they did on mine Whistle .

Even if you are out of warranty, but with a lower mileage fully serviced D3, and a major componant gives up, you still have a claim against LR, blanking the EGR's just takes away your ability to claim
  
Post #3954552nd Jan 2009 10:54 am
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simonsi
 


Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
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New Zealand 

MacLeod 313 wrote:
...blanking the EGR's just takes away your ability to claim


Depends, I've had 1x EPB rebuild and 1x replacement steering wheel when out of both factory and LR ext waranties, both done by the same dealer who is aware the car is chipped (its obvious when driving a chipped D3!), and no queries about blanked EGRs.... perhaps you have too honest a face Rolling with laughter
 Cheers

Simon 
 
Post #3954582nd Jan 2009 11:03 am
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