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DSC and or ETC possible fault?
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ianrichardson
 


Member Since: 31 Aug 2010
Location: Cardiff and Mid France!
Posts: 313

Wales 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 3
DSC and or ETC possible fault?

Guys and Girls,
I'm on a trip to France right now where it is raining just as much as the UK by the way, and yesterday I was driving along round a long shallow Left Hand bend and the DSP/ETC light came on, well flashed a few times, with the attendant fluttering noise of the ABS pump. Now I looked at the EXT temp and it was +5ªC so I ruled out ice! My little grey cells started to function and wonder why this had happened.
Later in the day I was going round a tightish right handed bend, and low and behold the DSC/ETC flashed again for a short while together with the ABS motor going. My foot was not on the brake pedal so I couldn't feel the modulation, just hear it. Now I am convinced that I hadn't lost any traction as the road was wet, yes, but still plenty of grip, and I wasn't going fast at all, maybe under 20mph.
So now two instances of the DSC/ETC working for no reason.
The last time it did it was later in the day when I was going slowly once again round a right hand bend and certainly did not loose any traction, even on bald tyres it wouldn't have slipped!
The only commonality was that it was wet and I was going slowly. I was on the motorway earlier in the day and there are some long fast corners on the A20 Autoroute I was on, coming out of Brive going south, and there was no hint of DSC/ETC light or ABS motor going. I was travelling at around 100 KPH, quite high cornering forces, and I would have expected something with the DSC/ETC to happen if it was going to!
So it seems to only happen when the car is going slowly, yet the first time I was doing 70 - 80 KPH.
I just don't understand why it is happening!
So is this just 'funny' or the start of a serious problem?
I'm going out today, it is still raining and I'll try and make it happen again!
I'll keep you updated, but in the meantime any thoughts?
Ian
  
Post #71533312th Nov 2010 11:13 am
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Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361

United Kingdom 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Java BlackDiscovery 3

Could just be as simple as your tyre pressures.
Or wheel alignment.
 Bodsys Brake Bible

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Post #71533512th Nov 2010 11:21 am
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PaulP
 


Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317

Spain 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham BlueDiscovery 3

Seeing as how it only seems to happen on bends, I would hazard a guess that the steering angle sensor in out of whack and needs calibrating.

If this is out of calibration it could cause the D3 to think that it isn't following the trajectory that it thinks you are doing and activates the TC in order to correct it....

Can you try desactivating the DSC and trying it again?

Cheers,
Paul
 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG 
 
Post #71533712th Nov 2010 11:26 am
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ianrichardson
 


Member Since: 31 Aug 2010
Location: Cardiff and Mid France!
Posts: 313

Wales 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 3

Thanks guys, for those VERY quick responses!

I'll try and see if it happens with the DSC switched off when ?I go out at lunch time shortly.

I do know that the rear upper bushes are worn on the NS and will be replaced when I return to the UK. Also both front lower swivels are a little worn and need to be done as well. Why it suddenly happened is the interesting thing. As it is very wet, my first thought was of a bad contact somewhere in the ABS wiring which senses the wheel rotation, but as you say there are other factors coming into play as well.
Ian
  
Post #71533912th Nov 2010 11:36 am
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Bodsy
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
Location: In the Clubhouse
Posts: 21361

United Kingdom 2007 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Java BlackDiscovery 3

If they're worn too, then there will be some movement and is likely to have been at the 'wrong' angle for the moment in time that you turned.

I suspect that it will be fixed once yoiu get back to the uK & have the work done Thumbs Up
 Bodsys Brake Bible

D4/D3 Remote FBH heat kits
BAS Remaps/ EGR Blank
Transmission Flush
Software updates/enabling


Clock/ SNOTM /3Flash / 4x4Info /BT Update /Service Reset/Error Codes / Gearbox Reset
See It Here 
 
Post #71534412th Nov 2010 12:00 pm
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methley
a.k.a. Big Hairy Ski Monster 


Member Since: 07 Oct 2008
Location: Marshfield, South Glos
Posts: 2433

England 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Java BlackDiscovery 3

I recall that PaganUK had the same problem. Replacing the worn bushes cured it.
 Andy

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Post #71534512th Nov 2010 12:06 pm
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ianrichardson
 


Member Since: 31 Aug 2010
Location: Cardiff and Mid France!
Posts: 313

Wales 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 3

Thanks again guys.
I tried it just now going to a Relais Routier for lunch. Next time you go to France try one for a meal, they are excellent, good food at a very reasonable price! Now smoking is forbidden they are very social places.

Back to the plot.
I turned the DSC off and not a trace of ABS motor on any corner, fast or slow.
So from that I deduce that there isn't a massive problem and that the 'wear' on all the suspension bits front and rear is making it very sloppy.
Now I am going to do the swivels and the bushes at the rear, so both bottom fronts will be done, that bit is easy, the problem comes with the rear top arm and bushes.
I have 'tried' the top front bolt, which is supposedly the killer, but mine is not seized and does undo, I haven't tried the top rear, but that is easier to get to, so I'm hoping that will come out easily!!
Can anybody offer advice as to how to maintain 'reasonable' accuracy of tracking and camber on the rear when taking it apart and putting it back together. I also have to renew the inner CV boot on that side so it will all be taken apart!
I think I would be silly not to renew the top bushes on the other side which so far haven't been flagged up as worn.
And Oh yes |I forgot one of the tie rods is worn but that is the other side to the worn bushes!
So a complete rear suspension rebuild. I will try and take some pictures to let people know how I am getting on or not as the case maybe.
I am going to put new bushes in rather than go for a new arm as it's my time and money I will be wasting!!
All help and advice welcome,
Thanks again for the suggestions so far.
Ian
  
Post #71539912th Nov 2010 2:52 pm
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PaulP
 


Member Since: 04 May 2007
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 4317

Spain 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham BlueDiscovery 3

ianrichardson wrote:
I turned the DSC off and not a trace of ABS motor on any corner, fast or slow.
So from that I deduce that there isn't a massive problem and that the 'wear' on all the suspension bits front and rear is making it very sloppy.

This is exactly what you would also expect to see if the steering angle sensor needs calibrating - that's why I suggested turning off the DSC in the first place Laughing

As you say, it sounds like you need to do work on the suspension anyway, but I have a feeling that you'd rather pay 20 quid to fix the calibration and "possibly" solve the problem than 500-1000 quid to replace half of the suspension.

I still don't see 100% how worn bushes could cause serious interference with the DSC system to the level that you're seeing.

To fire the DSC several things need to be detected using data from, amongst others, the wheel speed sensors, steering angle and yaw sensor. Obviously worn bushes would mean play in the suspension and steering, but that wouldn't necessarily causes deviations from what would be expected...unless there was a serious amount of play in the track-rod ends, but this would make the car almost undriveable anyway and you didn't specifically mention loose steering.

The steering angle is measured at the column - not at the wheels and although this could mean that you have to turn the wheel more than expected to turn the D3, I'm not sure the difference would be enough the trigger the DSC.

Just thinking out loud.... Mr. Green

Cheers,
Paul
 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Buckingham Blue
2007 Golf GT DSG 
 
Post #71540812th Nov 2010 3:13 pm
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ianrichardson
 


Member Since: 31 Aug 2010
Location: Cardiff and Mid France!
Posts: 313

Wales 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 3

Hi Paul

Responding to your very clear 'thinking out loud'!
I concur with everything you say and I had, if somewhat slowly, come to the same conclusion.
I had friends in the car going to lunch and it's a bit difficult to start throwing the beast around to get the ABS to go off!! Not good for a settled lunch, before or after! Having said that, when the lDSC/ETC light first showed it self I was driving alone and driving very steadily.
The rear suspension does need doing, quite how it got through the MOT in June, which was before I bought the car I don't know. Suspension bushes don't just go in my experience, it is a slow process, usually only found out at MOT time;-)
Of the list of things 'to do' there is a NS steering arm (Rack to Track rod end) yes there is play at the rack end. A common fault on these cars I am told. Not expensive to replace.
As for the rear suspension, I'm going to do it myself, well why shouldn't I?
The sum total is that the car will have good suspension for quite a few years to come.
I will need a tight 4 wheel alignment, so can I presume that the steering sensor will/could/should be done at the same time?
Total cost for all the parts, Rear toe links x 2 £25 Lower Front swivel joints @ £30 the pair, the bushes and new bolts for the rear about £40 for both sides, top arm only needed. Add to that the 4 wheel tight alignment and I hope that just over £100 should cover everything.
If you disagree with any of my pricing do say, I will not be offended.
Ian
  
Post #71549512th Nov 2010 6:40 pm
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LiftedDisco
 


Member Since: 10 Jun 2010
Location: Towcester
Posts: 997

United Kingdom 2016 Discovery 4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial Auto Barolo BlackDiscovery 4

Ian

I suspect that any planned work on the suspension bushes will make the vehicle far better to drive but you may also need to look at wheel bearings - this may be particularly relevant if all the other components are starting to show their age...

I have a D1 300TDi as a weekend plaything - the ABS is activated by means of an 'exciter ring' on each hub. This is very sensitive to any changes and operates by having a set air gap between the sensor and the ring - any minute differences to the expected norm and it will fire the ABS into action.

Just a thought!

Good luck with the rebuild!
  
Post #71563613th Nov 2010 8:37 am
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ianrichardson
 


Member Since: 31 Aug 2010
Location: Cardiff and Mid France!
Posts: 313

Wales 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 3

Hi LiftedDisco
Apart from not being able to add up, the proper cost of parts is more like £250! I'm not begrudging the money as I paid a low price for the D3 knowing that a high mileage but in good nic motor would have things wrong and the money I saved on the purchase I'd spend in doing all 'those jobs'!
One front wheel bearing was done for the MOT before I bought it, and the other was done just after I purchased it. I was amazed how much play there was in the bearing as no rumble or noise was evident! The rears feel fine, no play and smooth to spin.
So it is really the suspension that is in need of refurbishment.
As I said the NSR front top bolt is free to undo, and I'm hoping the other rear one is the same, but that one is easier to get to.
Now some advice, I presume I need to take the air pump protective plastic casing off to withdraw the bolt?
For those who have done the job, did you mark the eccentric washer on the outer bolt to enable a reasonable degree of 'back as it was' alignment?
Thanks again
Ian
  
Post #71564013th Nov 2010 9:12 am
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ianrichardson
 


Member Since: 31 Aug 2010
Location: Cardiff and Mid France!
Posts: 313

Wales 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Santorini BlackDiscovery 3

Well thanks to all the advice I came back from France over last weekend. The first entry onto the Auotroute had the DSC coming on. The DSC was on obviously. At the first Gonflage (Air for tyres) on the Autoroute, often found at peage points, I checked the pressures. The near side rear was down to about 1.6 Bar! It didn't look flat, just maybe a bit soft. Checked all the other tyres and the Offside Rear needed a bit, both fronts were OK.
Result, no further DSC and therefore no ABS motor.
I am amazed and grateful that the electonics can tell me that a tyre is soft!
What a car! And I don't have the Tyre pressure option either.

Moral even though when not loaded do keep an eye on the pressures!
End result is that the wine and beer arrived back in Cardiff without problems.
I'm still going to renew the Upper Arm bushes as they are defineately worn.
So who knows where to get the special tools needed to press them out on my press? I'm sure I could get them made but it might be easier to buy them. I'm also going to need the two tools for the lower front swivels.
So wise ones where do I go to get them?
Ian
  
Post #71900321st Nov 2010 8:48 pm
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