Member Since: 11 Jun 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 166
D4 Brake Vacuum Pump on a D3
Hi
I have a D4 vacuum pump and wondered what this port (see picture) is for? Does anyone have the fitting instructions from topix or have a diagram of what pipes connect to where?
Thanks in advance
Disco3 project
Last edited by dreynolds10 on 14th Feb 2016 2:28 pm. Edited 1 time in total
20th Jan 2016 7:42 pm
dreynolds10
Member Since: 11 Jun 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 166
So I have done some research and answering my own question, it's for the oil scavenger on the secondary turbo and dumps oil back into the sump (when D4 is at extreme angles and normal oil drain won't work).
Next question is, does anyone know if the galleries on the right hand cylinder head are material different between the D3 and D4?
Strange question I know but my little plan here is to try and retrofit a D4 vacuum pump onto a D3 to properly solve the "oil in booster" problem - which I have had twice now.
The pump does fit (I have tried it) but the air inlet and oil outlets on the pumps rear are slightly different design. In theory if the gallery on the head is the same (where the pump dumps oil into, being self lubricating) and in the same position then it should work.
Does anyone have a view?Disco3 project
24th Jan 2016 11:58 pm
zoneout
Member Since: 28 Oct 2015
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 39
I don't have a view, but I am very interested in what you find. I have been quoted a rude amount for a replacement D3 style pump (LR019761), and not keen to spend the money on it as I think its just going to happen again. Good luck, thanks for posting
12th Feb 2016 6:13 pm
dreynolds10
Member Since: 11 Jun 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 166
Hi Zoneout,
I am still working on the plan to replace the standard D3 pump with a D4 one. I have not completed and/or fully tested as yet but this is what I have learned so far.
The D4 pump is larger due to the scavenger pump included ie it is a Tandem pump. On topix it seems to indicate that in order to replace the pump on a D4 it requires the body to be removed. This seems excessive as it is not required on the D3 however it may be due to the fact that the D4 pump is fatter, again due to the scavenger - can anyone confirm?
I am therefore not sure whether it would be possible to retrofit a D4 pump onto a D3 without having the body off ( I currently do have the body off).
My current plan is to "loop out" the scavenger aspect of the D4 pump and just use the vacuum side. I am sure the galleries are the same so the pump should still fit, work and self lubricate.
I'd welcome anyone else's thoughts on whether there are any flaws in this plan?
As for your issue, did they charge you for parts and labour? If so then yes the costs can be extortionate. Best prices that I have seen for a new D3 pump are in Italy at 250 Euro. If you can wait for it to be shipped they are relatively straight forward to fit.Disco3 project
12th Feb 2016 11:35 pm
zoneout
Member Since: 28 Oct 2015
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 39
Thanks. Good info. The first time they didn't charge, but now they aren't going to cover any of the costs. I will fit the parts myself: new piping done, waiting for the booster, and looking around for the best price on a pump. Thanks for that tip, I will look: who was the vendor? At the price I was quoted for the pump here (around GBP650), I can wait!
On the booster: had you fitted the SJJ500090 the second time it was oiled up? Or was it still the SJJ500010 (older). I'm wondering if the new part makes any difference.
On fitting the vacuum pump: LR workshop says the exhaust system and cross over pipes need to be removed to get the pump off. Correct? Can't see why you would need to.
13th Feb 2016 8:45 am
dreynolds10
Member Since: 11 Jun 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 166
Can you elaborate as to why you are being told that you need a new vacuum pump? Is it the case that your pump is actually shot or do you have the "oil in booster" issue and therefore replacing all components to try to eliminate?
If its the latter then I am not convinced that replacing all of the components will resolve the issue. By all components I mean Booster, Booster piping, Master cylinder, Vacuum pump and pump piping (the new Heath-Robinson contraption installed post recall modification).
I have had the D3 pump apart and it is is a very simple device. There are no Non-Return-Valves (NRVs) inside. It does draw oil from the engine to lubricate and drips this back in through an inlet/outlet. It would be very easy for this oil to evacuate into the pipework.
My view is that it is the NRVs that are failing in the Heath-Robinson contraption and/or original pipework. Given that some owners have had this issue twice or more (myself included) and some have not, I think it is a failure in the NRVs that manifest over time.
Once you have the failure though and oil has contaminated your Booster, Piping and Master cylinder then the whole lot needs to be replaced.
As such I would question whether your pump has actually failed. If not then replacing it would be a waste of time and money (you could do a simple vacuum test on the pump to determine this). If the NRV has failed in your piping and you have oil contamination all the way back to the booster/cylinder then you would still need to replace those components which is still an expensive exercise.
What I am trying to achieve is to solve the problem permanently. The D4 pump is different in design to the D3 and does not allow the oil to flow around the Vacuum intake pipework as freely (hard to describe but I have had both pumps apart to diagnose).
Therefore, in your case I would question whether the pump has actually failed.
To answer your specific questions, I replaced my Booster with the Range Rover Sport Booster (SJJ500080) but the D3 latest version is SJJ500090 (which you have identified)). They will all fit but the RR Sport version has a larger diaphragm that gives little more vacuum/pressure so you need less brake pedal force.
Also, you don't need to take the Exhaust System off or the Exhaust Crossover pipe off to remove. You do need to undo the Coolant crossover pipe (which runs across the top of the engine) to get access and is simple to remove, then remove the bottom engine under shield. You then need to undo the bolts (there are 3 or 2 plus one stud depending on model year) on the vacuum pump blind from underneath and above. All very doable with a little patience. Bolts are not tight at 13nm.
Hope this helps.Disco3 project
13th Feb 2016 8:03 pm
zoneout
Member Since: 28 Oct 2015
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 39
Hi there,
Thanks for your detailed post.
My booster has a lot of oil, and I haven't checked the master cylinder yet, but I am pretty sure that it will have oil too. The Heath Robinson pipes were already fitted (and I have now fitted the next set), but I suspect that is all that was changed at the P017 recall. I don't think the booster was changed, nor the master. When I get the old one off I will be able to check if it 500090 or 500010.
I am also not sure if the pump has "failed" or not: its probably OK. But it does seem as if you think the D4 pump will be better at keeping the oil away from the pipes? There are two NRVs in the outlet (actually "inlet") line to the D3 pump: one in the piping itself (the cylindrical thing inline), and another which sits in the actual fitting of the pump itself (a small poppet type moulding with a light spring). Both were fine in my piping: fine as in they held a vacuum.
I am at a bit of a loss about the solution (long term, I mean). I probably won't change the vacuum pump, but its a pity to throw away GBP140 every time I change the booster, and another GBP140 for the master cylinder. It looks like that will have to be done every six to ten years, which I suppose it not so bad. If it is simply the NRV's failing though, then changing the pipework every three to five years at about GBP30 would be a good option. If that's what's happening.
Mark
Last edited by zoneout on 14th Feb 2016 3:02 pm. Edited 2 times in total
13th Feb 2016 8:29 pm
dreynolds10
Member Since: 11 Jun 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 166
Hi Mark
It could be that you had oil in the booster (and maybe cylinder) the first time that you had the recall. If the dealer never checked/replaced the booster then clearly this would not have solved the problem if it was already previously contaminated.
If I was in your position then I would replace the piping, cylinder and booster and hope for the best. I doubt that replacing the vacuum would add much difference.
As you state, if this needs to be be done every 8-10 years then so be it. At least we all know the least path of resistance.
Cheers
IainDisco3 project
13th Feb 2016 8:44 pm
zoneout
Member Since: 28 Oct 2015
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 39
Yes, I think thats what happened. When I have the old booster off I will be able to see. If its a 500010 then its confirmed! And you are right, I am going to do the piping (done), booster, master cylinder and see. I am sure it will be OK. The question is how long will it last!
Have you had a non-500010 booster fail? I wonder if there is any improvement in the 500090 booster itself which alleviates the problem. Though I can't see how it would (unless there is some kind of drain, which seems unlikely/impossible).
Interesting that the LR manual wants the exhaust OFF to remove the vacuum pump!
13th Feb 2016 8:57 pm
dreynolds10
Member Since: 11 Jun 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 166
Looks like you are working off a different version of the Manual. See the latest below (you can read it better by clicking on the file in my gallery)
Just in case you are interested here is a couple of pictures of the internals of the two different pumps (D3 & D4). As you can see the design is radically different. Also shows how much oil actually gets into the D3 pump.
D3 Pump
D4 Pump
Disco3 project
14th Feb 2016 2:19 pm
Sailor51
Member Since: 10 Aug 2016
Location: Sydney
Posts: 4
Hi Everyone,
I understand this is an old post but has anybody actually done a vacuum pump replacement? My mechanic told me that it’s hours and hours of work because you need to remove part of the exhaust system to access one or two of the bolts that fix the pump to the head.
I’ve had a new pump for a year now but it seems I need to make a decision soon lest pump and brake failure.
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