Member Since: 18 Mar 2013
Location: Sydney
Posts: 931
Battery maintenance charging with a Ctek 5
G'day, i've been communicating with Robbie, and on his suggestion I'll pose the same question.
I was listening to the radio with door open (beautiful spring day and SWMBO was shopping ) when a system message stated 'start engine or system will shut down in 3 minutes'. We are doing short around town trips at the moment. I have a Traxide dual battery set-up with an Optima yellowtop so decided to use my Ctek 5 connected to the Optima to charge the system. After 6 hours the Ctek has not gone past stage 4 to quote the manual: "ABSORPTION, BATTERY READY TO USE Charging with declining current to maximize up to 100 % battery capacity". Robbie suggested taking the Optima out of the loop and connecting to the main battery. Which I've just done.
Is the Ctek 5 up to the task and if so how long will it take to charge?
4th Oct 2014 8:40 am
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Member Since: 06 Nov 2006
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The creek is up to the charge, but I've noticed (even with my mxs25) that it takes a lot longer to show that it's charged with the optima connected than it does without. I suspect it's to do with the different battery sizes and types causing it to not quite know what it's expecting back as there is always some variation between the batteries.
I have the c-tek 7 last weekend I was connected for about 9 hours to charge both main and yellow top, but it did get there and the fourth light went green Altox GSM FBH controller thread
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4th Oct 2014 8:55 am
motolite
Member Since: 18 Mar 2013
Location: Sydney
Posts: 931
Thanks, it was on the go for 5 hours yesterday and 5 today(connected to both). I'll just leave it connected to the main o'night in the garage. I would prefer to spend my 'pension' on a new Shimano 11 speed MTB groupset than a new charger
4th Oct 2014 9:06 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Hello everyone,
I get multiple PMs a day and I do answer every one of them but where possible these exchanges work better on the open forum as it allows others to learn and to contribute with their own experience - I never stop learning. I do, of course, appreciate that some discussions on the open forum can become distorted or dragged off topic, usually by the same suspects. Equally some discussions are best one-to-one or are simple enough for a direct answer.
With any power or charging issue I will always advocate removal of aftermarket connections and building back up when in a known good state. I've mentioned previously that some 5 amp Cteks do not play well with AGMs and that Ctek say they have addressed this with more recent versions. 5 amps is not a particularly high charging rate either, which can be significant when you have 2 large batteries to fill and condition. Conditioning charges take 12 to 24 hrs or more to be effective.
I really need Drivesafe's view but from what I have seen the Traxide kit (easily the highest quality item out there) does not work as well on the MY13 (and perhaps earlier?). My suspicion lies with the new charging and energy recovery strategy. Using the MY13 as an example the ECU is content to let the battery voltage decay to a much lower level to reduce alternator load. It then uses power generated when slowing down to recover the battery to exploit the wider power curve of the AGM and it vastly increased ability to take on a charge (up to 5 times faster than a typical lead acid battery) to recover a sufficient state of charge. This strategy and the effect on the AGM is carefully monitored by the BMS tied directly to the main battery. I am not sure either the Traxide or perhaps the more conventional 2nd battery appreciates this new strategy in all situations.
Again, I do not mean to put people off from PMs (or emails or texts from those trusted) but always think forum first.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 18 Mar 2013
Location: Sydney
Posts: 931
The other thing of note, I used my 12v air compressor to put a couple of psi in the tyres in preparation for a trip soon. The Traxide SC80 isolator was showing a 'steady green' indicating the main battery was high voltage and the opitima was on charge, however after a few minutes with the compressor the light was flashing indicating low main voltage and that the optima had been isolated.
edit: I connected the compressor to the second (optima) battery
Where are you 'drivesafe'
4th Oct 2014 10:17 am
armalites
Member Since: 17 Aug 2013
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 1918
I must admit I am often surprised how long an Optima will take charge even from an MXS25. I have some YTS5.5 and they will start an old Series 3 diesel even when the voltage is 12.2, so I think they give you a false impression of how charged they are.IID PRO
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4th Oct 2014 10:50 am
motolite
Member Since: 18 Mar 2013
Location: Sydney
Posts: 931
Update: the charger has finally gone into 'float' as of an hour ago ðŸ‘
I'll have to do this as a routine every couple of months when we're not doing long km's
4th Oct 2014 1:11 pm
barryp
Member Since: 24 Dec 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 138
Robbie,
Does using a charger change the memory in the new LR vehicle battery charging and energy recovery system?
Asking this as when you replace the battery they recommend that you clear the memory with a GAP IID tool etc. , so does the charging impact the memory of the in vehicle system.
Regards
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5th Oct 2014 8:32 am
CUCO
Member Since: 26 May 2011
Location: Spain & Oleee!!!
Posts: 609
If you put the charger - lead outside the bms system, you will be ok, that is not directly on the battery post. You have a loop of copper on the same bms tiny box where you could attach the lead for chargign purposes.
The + on the battery post is ok.
In that way, the bms is aware of the charging process, if not it is not online with the charge.
Another way is using the towing plug. Same result.
5th Oct 2014 12:18 pm
barryp
Member Since: 24 Dec 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 138
Thanks CUCO, makes sense.
Regards
Barry2017 Range Rover Sport TDV6 L494 Fuji White
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5th Oct 2014 7:24 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
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I don't see the need to do anything different when charging a D4 and LR do not state any new requirements.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 20 Jun 2014
Location: York
Posts: 853
I use a CTEK MXS10, and following advice from Drivesafe, I connect the +ve to the spare +ve post on the battery and the -ve to a chassis ground. As CUCO says, this means that any charge you put into the battery is registered by the BMS. His advice was to always let the vehicle go to sleep before charging - leave at least 30 mins before connecting the charger. I do this by connecting the charger lead to the vehicle and then waiting 30 mins before switching it on.
Then charge for about 12 hours - the CTEK should then be giving you a 'Green'. If you want to add capacity to your battery, then disconnect the charger, wait for 6-8 hours and then charge again. This time gives the battery time to lose it's surface charge. Leaving the battery on trickle charge for long periods of time won't help, as it's the period of fast charge that 'exites' the battery and makes it more willing to take extra trickle charge.
As far as resetting the BMS with an IID tool, this should only be done when a new battery is fitted. The BMS algorithms change as it thinks the battery is getting older. Resetting the BMS resets these 'history' algorithms and alters the way it uses the alternator to charge your battery. As long as you charge your battery in the way that CUCO and I suggest, then there is no need to have your BMS reset until you purchase a new battery.D4 MY14 XXV - RLD/IID BT
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5th Oct 2014 7:44 pm
barryp
Member Since: 24 Dec 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 138
Note that my GAP tool reset discussed above was after installing a new battery.
Query was more generic re charging also affecting BMS operation and this has been discounted as no impact.
Thanks,
Barry2017 Range Rover Sport TDV6 L494 Fuji White
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6th Oct 2014 7:55 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Robbie wrote:
My suspicion lies with the new charging and energy recovery strategy. Using the MY13 as an example the ECU is content to let the battery voltage decay to a much lower level to reduce alternator load. It then uses power generated when slowing down to recover the battery to exploit the wider power curve of the AGM and it vastly increased ability to take on a charge (up to 5 times faster than a typical lead acid battery) to recover a sufficient state of charge. This strategy and the effect on the AGM is carefully monitored by the BMS tied directly to the main battery.
Hi folks and Robbie, you actually answered the question relating to the problem.
The MY13 and MY14 BMS just does not work well at all.
I started seeing people having problems when charging their cranking batteries, because the battery was low or even flat, and after “FULLY†charging the battery, they were still getting low battery messages.
NOTE, this is in vehicles that do NOT have dual battery systems, mine or any other brand, so there is a problem with the MY13 and MY14 BMS operation and monitoring.
I have had two cases in the last few month, where customers have had flat batteries, and at my direct, after being told by the “experts†at the dealerships that my system that was flattening their cranking batteries, both customers disconnected my system for around a month but still got flat batteries.
And guess what the dealerships both repeated!!!!!!!! even though the DBS had been disconnected for the previous month.
One of the customers rigged up a battery monitor, connected directly to his cranking battery and noticed on quite a few occasions, ( MY14 ) that the voltage, while driving, never rose above 12.6v. ( down to 12.1v on many occasions ) The alternator just was not charging.
The dealership has finally done a reboot and so far his voltage levels are back up in the low 14v at times.
Now the “experts†told this guy that my system was not good for the cranking battery as it discharged it below 12.5v and cranking batteries must not be taken below 12.5v at any time.
I have not come across a single D4 that has a settled voltage higher than 12.2v, prior to fitting one of my kits or before rigourous charging with a battery charger.
Hi motolite, you have found what is controlling factor for charging batteries properly, TIME.
I have pointed this out a number of times, but worth repeating, to give your batteries the best charge possible, use a SMALL battery charger.
In just the last week, one of the major battery manufactures, Exide, has stated the same for their batteries.
The “problem†with using a small capacity battery charger is that it will take MUCH longer to charge the batteries.
Motolite, give it a day or two and charge your batteries again.
This time they will charge much quicker, but when they are charged, leave the charger running for around 8 to 10 hours more, and this should be done by everybody, every time you charge lead acid batteries.
The extra charging time, while in FLOAT mode, will condition your batteries and help to regain some if not all of their original capacity.
Folks, if you have one of my systems fitted, as long as the isolator is still Cut-In ( ON ), connect your charge to the Optima and charge both batteries that way.
The Optima is harder to charge with a small charger but it will benefit from the slow charge, as will your cranking battery.
Like it or not, folks, you are all going to need to charge your batteries, on a regular basis because Land Rover have not got it right as to how to charge cranking batteries.
If your cranking battery is fully charged and you start your motor, then you need at least 15 to 20 minutes of driving to replace the energy needed to start the motor.
If your battery has been getting progressively lower, because of irregular use or from lots of short drives, which is the case in most new vehicles, LR or otherwise, then you need 20 minutes of driving to replace the energy used to start the motor and then another 5 hours, to recondition the cranking battery.
Obviously, this is not very realistic, so a battery charger should be supplied as a standard part of buying any new vehicle, but more so with any new Land Rovers.
Doing a short high voltage boost charge, just after the motor is started, will not recharge depleted cranking batteries, and this not only applies to just Land Rovers.
BTW, if you have one of my DBS fitted and do a lot of short drives, my DBS will not solve the problem but will dramatically slow the rate at which the cranking battery looses charge capacity.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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) when a system message stated 'start engine or system will shut down in 3 minutes'. We are doing short around town trips at the moment. I have a Traxide dual battery set-up with an Optima yellowtop so decided to use my Ctek 5 connected to the Optima to charge the system. After 6 hours the Ctek has not gone past stage 4 to quote the manual: "ABSORPTION, BATTERY READY TO USE Charging with declining current to maximize up to 100 % battery capacity". Robbie suggested taking the Optima out of the loop and connecting to the main battery. Which I've just done.
