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Paul J.
Member Since: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Leafy Cheshire
Posts: 7253
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For those with a degree in statistics, here is an article explaining how the results have been moderated.
I ran out of fingers and toes before getting beyond Stage 1. 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8...rithm.html An ex-Disco3 / FFRR owner ......
..... now on the JLR electric highway.
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 13th Aug 2020 11:16 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13100
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Pelyma wrote:As usual[...]
Other than telling you to wind your neck in, I might have suggested that exams could have been carried out in a controlled fashion over a longer period of time. Normally, exams happen in a rush in two or three weeks with students crammed in halls etc. It should have been possible to allow students the option of sitting exams in lower densities to limit diseases spread. Done with care, those that wanted to sit could have done. The rest, those not wanting to sit the papers, could have then taken pot luck in the "stick a finger in the air" system that has been used.
I'm not lucky enough to have children. If I had children that were going through this, I'd be raging against it if they had been handed results that in no way matched their expected results just because of where they went to school.
As for how hard it is compared to yesteryear, I've had some experience. When at school, we were asked to sit preparatory GCSE papers (I was doing O-levels at the time). We sat a Chemistry paper. Everyone passed and we still had a year of study to go before our O-levels. That suggests the papers weren't as difficult, although it is no proof, of course. Other than that, having dealt with work placement pupils who were expected to achieve, or already had achieved, high grades, I found most knew nothing other than the exact things they'd been taught for the exams. No general knowledge of subjects. That suggests a system not teaching a subject but an exam pass. That's a travesty but a different issue to the one being discussed here.
As I've already said, I feel sorry for those kids that have worked hard and were expected to attain high grades. By dint of being at a school that didn't previously do as well on league tables, their futures might now be very different to those they had dreamed. Some will manage to get there, others will struggle to match their earlier promise. I would not be surprised to hear of suicides as a result of some pupils being given artificially poor results. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
Last edited by RRSTDV8 on 13th Aug 2020 11:20 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| 13th Aug 2020 11:19 pm |
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Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
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So GCSEs started in about 1988 do you not think they have changed across that time? A Levels have also changed several times across that period, even in the last 4 years they have changed dramatically. As for kids only knowing what they have been taught, that is the school not the exam, the endless pursuit of league table positions creates the lack of breadth to a pupils understanding. You have always had a curriculum to follow and a specification that identifies exactly what they will be tested on. Schools that have great teachers will encourage debate, discussion and investigation around this, those that are hanging on by their finger nails to get the school up the rankings (those poor schools that you mentioned) will not take the risk and why would they, this begins right back in Y2 with the first set of SATS and a reading test.
It didn’t matter how many exams are taken in a day as you can’t have kids doing the same exam at different times as guess what they put their experiences on social media. The GCSE Computer Science exam had to be altered this year as it had been leaked and guess how quickly that spread and most normal years this will happen. If you remember back in May when we were in the middle of lock down people were being criticised for going out even for exercise how do you think 200 kids in most secondary schools would appear?
Child suicide is actually quite close to my heart, we have friends that both lost sons, one just before his GCSEs and the other before his A Levels, both hanged themselves both have left catastrophic consequences for the family 6 and 4 years after the event. So yes you can tell me to wind my neck in but respectfully you need to actually understand the situation today not from 30 years ago and actually understand that in times of a worldwide crisis there is no easy way out of this and it isn’t over yet, next years kids are going to have an even tougher time of it and the poor kids will suffer the most as they will be least equipped to deal with it. DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
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| 14th Aug 2020 6:35 am |
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astonbuilder
Member Since: 29 Sep 2006
Location: MIDLANDS
Posts: 8052
 
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I feel for some of the individuals who seemingly have grades that don't reflect their ability and/or predicted grades but I also imagine they are in the minority generally?
I have friends and relations who are teachers and very brief feedback from them is they are pretty much in-line with expectations and friends/colleagues with kids reporting similar, not heard of any disaster cases of 3-4 grades all way off the mark as it were.
Couple of incidents of one subject being +/- one grade of expectation that I would imagine is fairly normal?
I do think this year will be 'tainted' for years with the comment of "oh, you got XYZ grades, but that was in 2020" whether they are exceptionally good or bad....
As with many 'things' these last few months not sure what, or if, there is a 'right' way that could have happened
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| 14th Aug 2020 10:42 am |
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waterbuoy
Member Since: 26 Oct 2013
Location: Argyll
Posts: 2862
 
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This was always going to be a problem, sadly it has been compounded by the Scot Gov's U-turn in order to allow Swinney to retain his job, and the knee-jerk reaction from Westminster to try and follow.
I speak as someone who, having done a pretty good job of screwing up his own A-level mocks back in the day (so much so that the school refused to cover my entrance fees for some of the subsequent exams!) but managed to get a decent enough set of grades and get to Uni. A decade on I found myself assessing applications for a Scottish Uni department as the admissions tutor and first year course coordinator. At that time the uni had the highest suicide rate in the UK (pressures caused by continuous assessment and the semester system) so it was a pretty full on job dealing with students who were struggling with the expected standards etc.
With regard to what others have said already:
FC if of course correct; all universities and colleges are businesses (more so than ever) and need to keep their numbers up in order to maintain viability.
Despite what many think, pure 'academic' standards have fallen - in just under a decade I witnessed a decline in the general ability of incoming students (and can give specific examples if required). The 'good' students are still there, but there are a lot more students which would not have made the grade in previous decades. Each year our external examiner (brought in to 'standardise' grades) would comment on this.
Whilst academic standards have fallen there has perhaps been an increase in other skills such as social awareness and interaction etc. This may suit some employers more than pure academic standards.
With regard to A-level results, some students will always do better than expected whilst others will under-perform. Such is life I'm afraid, and every year we see news articles about this showing photos of happy/grumpy students with their results sheets in their hands. This year is no different.
As I understand it students in England are likely to have the option of taking 're-sits', but that may not be the case here in Scotland. For people who think they have been really hard done by then that may be the best option.
There can be no doubt that Scot Gov have copped out and this year we will see people getting through that would not have done so in previous years. I suspect the same will be happening in England (and Wales). There will be a (most likely) smaller number of people whose grades will not reflect their potential - had this happened when I took my A-levels then that would have applied to me based on past performance as I have always been a deadline person.
I don't envy anyone who is involved in the process at all this year - it is right royal sh*t storm - and understand those who feel they have been hard done by. I also feel for the 'high achievers' whose efforts, for the next few years at least, are likely to be associated with the 'oh, that was the Covid year' type comments. Currently 2009 Disco 3 SE, 2013 MY D4 HSE and 2016 D4 SE
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| 14th Aug 2020 10:45 am |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13100
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It would be nice to see more students having the opportunity to get work placements / apprenticeships with employers. Every year we hear employers bemoaning the state of young people going in to the work place, often unhappy with the degrees taken etc. Perhaps more should step up and take people on and put them through relevant qualifications.
I was lucky enough to have my degree paid for by employers. There was a requirement to stay for a period of time after attaining qualification, so the employer benefited from the outlay. Sadly, with the silly-high costs of degrees etc. now, even fewer employers are going to want to shell out in this way.
I was chatting to a couple of young lads in the village t'other evening. One was looking to go down the engineering apprenticeship type road. He's not good at the standard exams process but is otherwise bright. Hopefully he can find a suitable placement. Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 14th Aug 2020 11:38 am |
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pjm-84
Member Since: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 2436
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Quote:It would be nice to see more students having the opportunity to get work placements / apprenticeships with employers. Every year we hear employers bemoaning the state of young people going in to the work place, often unhappy with the degrees taken etc. Perhaps more should step up and take people on and put them through relevant qualifications.
Employer bemoaning here!
Quote:I was lucky enough to have my degree paid for by employers. There was a requirement to stay for a period of time after attaining qualification, so the employer benefited from the outlay. Sadly, with the silly-high costs of degrees etc. now, even fewer employers are going to want to shell out in this way.
I paid for one of my guys to do his degree course. Cost me £20k. He is now very dismissive of the course, having just finished, and fully appreciates / accepts that he has learnt far more working on the job and the mentoring provided over the last 4 years. I promised him a salary of 30k on attainment of his degree, not due to the qualification but based on his experience, me not having to pay £5k a year for the course, and being full time in the office. Plus a progressive salary increase from 30k to 35k over the next 12 months, post degree, as he took on more responsibility.
Not quite there yet but he will make it. He left school at 16 with very few qualifications.
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| 14th Aug 2020 12:07 pm |
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Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
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Degree apprenticeships I think are a great way forward for many kids instead of university, the employer gets what they want, the employee gets the degree and usually the job and no debt. My son went this route but he did find teachers were quite dismissive, he had places at Surrey and Southampton but decided not to take those up. His peers will finish their courses this year with £50K of debt his only debt is his mortgage, he has savings and a pension since the age of 18 - there was a lot to recommend it from a parents point of view as I didn't need to fund him either! DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
DS3 TDV6 HSE- Silver with Alpaca (new one) Gone
D4 HSE Lux - Montalcino Red Gone
Porsche Cayenne V8 Diesel S
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| 14th Aug 2020 2:52 pm |
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RRSTDV8
Member Since: 07 Apr 2014
Location: Here
Posts: 13100
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Pelyma - that's something on which we do agree.   Visiting from rrsport.co.uk
2012 RRS SDV6
2008 RRS TDV8
"When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know who's children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning: SIT DOWN AND TALK!"
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| 14th Aug 2020 3:29 pm |
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Pelyma
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Patching, Sussex
Posts: 15496
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Well there you go  DS3 TDV6 HSE - Silver with Alpaca (old one) Gone
DS3 TDV6 HSE- Silver with Alpaca (new one) Gone
D4 HSE Lux - Montalcino Red Gone
Porsche Cayenne V8 Diesel S
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| 14th Aug 2020 4:00 pm |
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Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6902
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Pelyma wrote: The fact that teacher predictions would have created a 20% improvement means these predictions were pretty unlikely. .
And I think that is the big problem, if the estimates had returned up to about 5% rise country wide then probably next to no one would have been downgraded. Joined the BMWX5 45e group
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| 15th Aug 2020 8:22 am |
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Dave T
Member Since: 03 Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 6902
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Andy burnham.....it’s so unfair that deprived areas have been downgraded......
Bbc interviewer.....more people from deprived areas have uni places ..... Joined the BMWX5 45e group
1994 Defender 90
2015 RRS Corris Grey/Black roof
2016 D4 Graphite Santorini Black
2012 D4 XS Orkney Grey
2005 D3 S Maya Gold
Convoy for Heroes 2011
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| 15th Aug 2020 8:27 am |
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Farmer Chalk
Member Since: 07 Mar 2013
Location: Independent Republic of Kentishshire.
Posts: 4156
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RRSTDV8 wrote:Pelyma - that's something on which we do agree.
 Me!
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| 15th Aug 2020 8:41 am |
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Canburne
Member Since: 15 Jan 2013
Location: Devon
Posts: 2029
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RRSTDV8 wrote:Pelyma - that's something on which we do agree.
Which goes to prove you are wrong most of the time then!!! .
"the inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings....the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" Winston Churchill
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| 15th Aug 2020 9:11 am |
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Discoveringcomfort
Member Since: 16 Sep 2015
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 637
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I haven't fully read some of these "comments" as they are just boo hoo get over it.
My daughter has been marked down 2 grades on her most important and best subject, "its only a few affected" how about 40%!!!!!!!!!!! 200k+ students.
Scotland gives up so now penalised downgraded rest of UK students have to lose places to upgraded Scottish students as they all have the same unis to apply to. This is the British way, we stick to the rules even when it is only hurting ourselves!! When Scotland gave up so should London to keep it level, if everyone is upgraded then they still have the same equal chance. Worries about not enough uni places, there never is enough but this year there are no overseas students anyway so more places available.
Boris has not down his homework as now there are 200k next time voters and probably their parents who won't vote for him (though in truth the 18 yr olds are mostly non Consrvative anyway).
I found it incredible that a "true up" could be more than one grade either way!! Series 1 V8
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| 15th Aug 2020 11:19 am |
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